Devil Took The Joke
Gökçen Fındıkçı • 25.12.2024
But the bests never tend to be recorded, the best we only simply constantly pass by
In the ever-evolving realm of contemporary art, few creatives navigate the intersection of media and personal history as compellingly as Maja Milić (b. 1985, Croatia). A visionary artist, filmmaker, sound explorer, and DJ. Maja has carved out a distinct space for herself in the experimental and conceptual art landscape. Her multidisciplinary practice challenges conventions, weaving together elements of experimental autoethnography with a bold approach to deconstructing and reconstructing reality.
At the core of her work lies an intricate interplay between found footage, home movies, and everyday fragments of life—transformed into profound artistic expressions. Her ongoing film project, OTHER (2021–present), epitomizes this approach, unraveling the boundaries between the personal and the intercultural inclusive. Beyond cinema, these explorations extend into sound improvisation, radiophonic experiments, and expanded cinema performances, where sound and visuals converge in innovative ways.
Maja´s conceptual book, also titled OTHER, and published by Atlas Projectos & We Make It, serves as an extension of her artistic philosophy. It underscores her commitment to reimagining the mundane, spotlighting how even trivial elements of existence can resonate with depth and complexity.
In this interview, with my questions, we delve into the mind of Maja to uncover the inspirations, methodologies, and evolving vision behind her multifaceted body of work, mostly Other & the rest.
Since our repeated encounters with Maja, I have become quite familiar with her work, style, and general approach to______ the things. I first encountered her at a workshop event, and after our initial meeting and exchange, she shared a link with me to watch Other. Compelled by the film, I felt it necessary to provide detailed feedback via email, sharing my first impressions alongside suggestions for improvement. I proposed segmenting the film to better showcase its conceptual and visual coherence.
Later, I had another opportunity to explore her work from different perspectives, uncovering her unique approach to experimenting with diverse elements in a manner marked by pure sincerity and curiosity. Notably, Maja’s ethnographic and anthropological perspective is a defining feature of her artistry, profoundly shaping her themes. She delves deeply into the cultural and social dimensions of her subjects, using film as a medium to thoughtfully explore and document these layers.
In her work, Maja Milić explores the inclusive and multifaceted concept of "the Other." Her film, structured in four chapters, weaves a rich tapestry of footage into a layered audio-visual narrative. By employing experimental techniques and thoughtfully examining the relationships within her material, she maintains a deliberate and measured distance, addressing the ethnographic theme with honesty and nuance. The project deftly engages with ethical questions, allowing its story to unfold naturally and organically.
During the book launch in June in Berlin, I had the privilege of viewing the film on the big screen once again, this time alongside an audience. The screening was followed by an illuminating discussion, where Maja’s insights offered fresh perspectives and reignited an ongoing dialogue. Her unique ability to intertwine critical ethnographic inquiries with a deeply personal audiovisual approach results in a work that is both compelling and profoundly thought-provoking.
Gökçen Fındıkçı: Hi, Maja, the first thing that comes to mind is this: why did you choose to title your project simply Other?
Maja Milić: For me, It holds a subtle connotation to the ethnographic Other as guess which is also a conceptual part of the work. which could also allude to my approach. Still, there is purposely no grammatical article to frame it, like ‘an Other’, or ‘the Other’, also not ‘Others’. So it could be anything - a noun, pronoun, verb or adjective - a simple word. At first, it is meant to leave it unclear, or even be perceived as a mistake. After you see the film or read the book, it becomes a paradox, and maybe a riddle, since the content is not other at all. I want you to question and rethink. So the title is supposed to add to the creation of meaning, like any other part of the film. It is a way to communicate with the audience.
GF: Based on your interpretation and exploration of the concept of "Other"—particularly the ethnographical "Other"—how would you define and frame this idea within your work?
MM: Actually it all started with seeking the meaning of the Other, which is the crucial concept of ethnography. I was wondering where is this separation, dualism on which it is based: how far in any terms (spatial, temporal, material, ideological, internal, medial) we must be to consider us here distant enough to say “they” are somewhere there, out of reach? We are always in relation and we define ourselves through relation, so it just depends on what position you take at what point. I mean, there is a difference, but separation is artificial. If you can be othering others, they can other you as well, its a reversal process. In that sense, you could be at the same time the self, us and the other, which just means: if you are everything at the same time, you are also nothing. which proves they are us and that my search is not outside, but rather inside the self. I call it the Other within. In my approach, I use the concept of e ethnographic "Other" to define that part of ourselves that is involuntarily grounding our beliefs, habits, ways of acting and thinking in culture and social mentality, but which has been so deeply taken for granted that it became estranged from our own selves. That part in ourselves we don't know why it acts how it acts, because it takes our act as a norm. When observed, the most banal situations become strange, or, a container of the socio-cultural essence. Banality is a minority in the sense that it is the least observed source of understanding. Something that can't be learned just lived. It is less about what (content), and more about how (concept).
Other could be anything, not just culture or people. As expanded term. It could be an other archive, an other history, an other way. It's not everything, but everything else. Reading between lines and structures.
GF: To be able to engage with this sense of wholeness and inclusivity—as previously mentioned—I wonder, does the material still retain its own identity now that it has become your material? For instance, elements like a landscape, a language, basic symbols, or simple daily rituals. How to process a memory in this context (of homemovies)?
MM: As I believe all footage is ethnographically loaded, on one hand, I obviously use home movies for this quality, kinda personal ethnography. Although they are shot by specific individuals, something very particular, what and how it is shot, in terms of visual culture, is common to the majority. If we exclude the specifics of certain cultures (of the elements you mention), there is something common to everybody of that time. So I use the particular to say something general, still inside my own culture, so also personal, but then the general, structurally speaking, contains additionally a general extending culture. So, although I belong to a certain culture and I am speaking from inside, which is the only way for me, my intention is to speak to all. I don’t deny cultural conditioning on myself, the only culture I can deeply understand is my own. Especially using home movies, the only possibility for me is using footage found in my own ethnographic landscape, which would be my country, Yugoslavia.
On the other hand, I use found footage because of the unique ways you can create meaning with it.
Found footage adds a more complex layer to meaning that does not exist in any other way. It attracts me because it always carries a mysterious context, which I see as potential. It is like letting something speak for you; you direct it but never have full control. I like to lose control, it adds to the unpredictability of meaning, that really means exposing oneself and getting to know oneself together with the audience, fully open to be vulnerable. So, people take control of producing meaning.
GF: Is staying true to reality and factual accuracy an essential aspect of your work?
MM: I have no interest in narrative/storytelling, or linear things. When you create a story, you create a meaning that is closed, you say a precise thing and come to a point. That is a kind of power, telling people there is just one way to think. I do not do this. I use elements of reality and deconstruct, maybe even abstract them, put them in unsolvable relations, opening up the meaning into infinity, while letting the images carry their own identity in their own specific way, having a life of their own. By unsolvable relations I mean relations between image-sound-text that are not led by logic or sense-making, but create something very new (for me at the same time as for the audience), sometimes guided by underlying structure of coincidence or concept.
Important for me is also (to cite myself) the space between words, the material between images, and the silence in the music. A soul has no adjectives.
GF: I grabbed the word ‘P 0 W E R’, that you mentioned you're willing to reject. You even
provided an answer, but still, I’m curious—what kind of power are you referring to?
MM: Found footage is tricky and there is a power or privilege gained by simply taking something that
belongs to someone else and using it for one's own agenda. Filmmaking is a lot about control, so you
must be able to understand something here or try to understand the footage in your own way, spend
some time with it, to be able to use it in a way you don’t underestimate the audience. This is important for me. I spent many years just watching and thinking before I grasped using any of it. Once you can justify the act and align with your integrity, you should be completely free to do any imaginable thing, to destroy it and create anew. Like, free jazz.
Another type of power I feel arising in ethnographic endeavors derives from talking about an Other
without involving the Other. I mean, I don’t think what you say reveals anything about anybody but
you. The minimum solution is to expose your method -ethnographic standpoint-.
So my way is to expose what I’m dealing with. Dealing with something as a personal thing.
Vulnerability is important, to be blatantly honest. Otherwise, nothing meaningful can happen to
anybody. And since you already put all the cards on the table, there’s nothing to lose.
I never show Other unless there is a part of me being exposed and vulnerable at the same time.
GF: At this point, I’m quite willing to pose a tricky question: does language play a role for you in
making someone ‘Other’? Or what kind of relationship do you see between these two concepts?
My point is that the vulnerability you mention, along with the mother tongue, can provide a
sense of naivety and exposure. I would love to hear your thoughts and approach to this concept
throughout processing the film and the book.
MM: I love this question! For sure, yes, only the mother tongue contains a surplus of information that
comes from our participation in that culture, more obvious in slang, phrases, idioms, tone, accent -
the way people have bent language into a site-specific holder of history. Knowing too much, this
surplus is exactly what the Other is. This is what I'm trying to catch.
That's why in the text of my book, which basically consists of transcribed field recordings of
conversations / spoken word in public spaces, I try to literally recreate how we speak, all what you can hear in the audio, including the breaks, unfinished sentences, crutch words, repetitions, etc.
Sorry, I haven't mentioned before - I published a book titled Other right after the film. The book
made me deal with language in a deeper way. I found out, for example, that an ultra-small amount of
words can transmit a lot of information. It is possible to understand a lot about people -where they’re from, what they do, etc.- through their choice of words and the way they are used, even if you don't hear full sentences. Since the book is in Serbo-Croatian and English, while translating, I had to
decipher the meaning of phrases and especially idioms. It amazed me how we unawarely carry in the
present something from the far past. I'll give a simple example. The idiom “Pušiš kao Turčin”, literally
meaning “You smoke like a Turk”, actually meaning that you smoke too much, refers to a time
when the Ottoman Empire had significant influence in the region. This is what I mean by language as
holder of history. Translation can help to understand it, so the actual other (the foreign language), the
outsider to a culture, is brought to find the Other as culture in itself.
GF: To specify further, when it comes to the process of making the film Other, I’m interested in
the materials you used. What is the story behind them?
MM: The material I work with are home movies shot on 8mm film, found in Croatia. I never use the
original footage, though. I manipulate it by reshooting again on film in various ways, mostly
deconstructing. The collecting started around 10 years ago while I was still living there. It
was a very slow evolving process. There was not so much material around. I started contacting people who had put ads about selling 8mm projectors or equipment, to ask if they had any films and I really managed to gather some material that way. I liked that with some people I even got into discussions as to why I would want this private material. I was interested in why they would sell it. The rest comes from the flea market. I like to think that it found me, not the other way around.
Home movies’ personality offers a huge potential for experimentation, best described with Deleuze’s
concept of the rhizome. I mean their ambiguity, nonlinearity and elastic duration, randomness,
triviality, they are very punk! It’s like a subconscious of banality. I always think of what Bruce
Conner said: ''if you want to know what is going on in culture, look at what everybody takes for
granted.''
In the beginning my process was to watch the material and write down what I see in the most literal
way. The idea was to repeat this over and over until it starts talking to me. I use this exercise in
perception in my workshops and always something is revealed to us in some strange way.
GF: To specify further, when it comes to the process of making the film Other, I’m interested in the materials you used. What is the story behind them?
MM: The material I work with are home movies shot on 8mm film, found in Croatia. I never use the original footage, though. I manipulate it by reshooting again on film in various ways, mostly deconstructing. The collecting started around 10 years ago while I was still living there. You know, it was a very slow evolving process. There was not so much material around. I started contacting all people who had put ads about selling 8mm projectors or equipment, if they had any films and I really managed to gather some material that way. I liked that with some people I even got into discussion why I would want this private material. I was interested in why they would sell it. The rest comes from the flea market. I like to think that it found me, not the other way around.
Home movies’ personality offers a huge potential for experimentation, best described with Deleuze’s concept of the rhizome. I mean their ambiguity, nonlinearity and elastic duration, randomness, triviality, they are very punk! It’s like a subconscious of banality. I always think of the sentence Bruce Conner said: if you want to know what is going on in culture, look at what everybody takes for granted.
In the beginning my process was to watch the material and write down what I see in the most literal way. The idea was to repeat this over and over until it starts talking to me. I use this exercise in perception in my workshops and always something is revealed to us in some strange way.
GF: You also mentioned that the footage is solely from your ethnographic landscape, correct? Could you tell me a bit more about why you chose this approach?
MM: I define __________
justify_____ using a material that I deeply connect.
I generally believe only in autoethnography. I don't think it is possible to truly understand the difference (be it in culture or people), only to accept it. But inside my own culture I can say what I want, because I live it. That's why I say the Other within is my own cultural conditioning because it conditioned me to not be able to understand difference / other and it is foreign to me why it would do so and make me act in a specific way which i would never even know if i wouldnt get out of this place which conditioned me. Tricky! I don't rely on the mind, honestly, I think only love can overcome all of this. Anyway, I can't dare talking too much about things I can't understand. That has something to do with what I previously said about not underestimating your audience. On the other hand, I also think there should be no restrictions under conditions of pure honesty and your own integrity.
GF: As mentioned in the introduction, the film consists of four main chapters. Could you please share how you structured the film? If there was a certain guideline from you or so?
MM: There are for now four parts or pieces, which I consider modular, but the film is ongoing. It can grow and change. The parts could be rearranged, standalone as separate films, more could be added or removed. My intention is to create more, and there would be different versions, so it is always new. I feel like there is still a lot more to discover.
Two predominant structural elements of this film are re-shot home movies and randomly caught public conversations, both of which are self-collected. Those deconstructed documents are placed in seemingly random, sometimes self-reflexive correlations that explored a diary-style relation to ethnographic and historic vision that did not aim at storytelling, but went down to question the ontology of the image itself, as well as preconceived concepts of history. Its division into four parts signified the concepts of these correlations: content with image structure, landscape/territory with (non)identity/gestures, image content with voice-over content, and observation with contemplation on the medium.
GF: Last but not least, I’m aware of your ability and playfulness with sound and noise. How was it for Other? Was it completely impulsive and improvisational, or did it follow the thematic structure of the film?
MM: The sound is giving the backbone. It can change everything. It puts you in a different place to watch from. I am working quite intuitively. I never have something specific I want to do or the image I want to synchronize to. It comes from somewhere else than reasoning. Honestly sometimes the meaning or explanation I find later, and I am still finding.
GF: How have you reflected this concept on different mediums, audio-visual material and then written as a final product out of this concept, Other the book?
MM: One layer of my approach is intermedial. I use different media to expand the meaning, each adding to the meaning of the other. Except the obvious relationship between media, this also means an internal plurality of each medium, always containing elements of other media in themselves, forming a certain semiotic rupture within themselves, a (medial) Other within.
My work in sound improvisation, radiophonic experiments, expanded cinema performances, as well as the book, is all cryptically intertwined and in all of that I believe to be practicing film, too. By losing the concrete image, there opens a space for different kinds of expression. So, the book is seen here as film, a film in the form of a book. The filmic part is the virtual image. The transcribed texts can be seen as found footage and I deal with them in the same way as I do with the found images. I think of the words as sound, in the first place, and my act as sampling - indeed, it is a recording of a sonic environment. The graphic representation of the text is recreating the real-life sonic (hearing) situation that is related to the words, a landscape of words - there are signs for noise (missing words), unfinished sentences, ruptures, silences. If you imagine everything you have ever heard in public space in the most banal way, I believe it is heavily forming your image and knowledge about your culture. In my website theotherarchive.com, there will be an archive of a lot more of the collected texts and all the works.
I am interested in what Roland Barthes calls the third or obtuse meaning, a signifier without a signified. How do you describe something that doesn't represent anything?
GF: Okay. I will take my time to find a concrete and proper answer to this question and any others that may arise during the process. But for now, we need to come to an end. - Aber ich danke dir ganz herzlich.
Oh okay,
Take your time
Next time maybe from the bible.
-Aber erstmal lass uns zum Späti!-
Gökçen Fındıkçı
Maja Milic
Berlin 2024
For more informations about OTHER: https://we-make.it/other/